As a Jags fan, Garrard should be second and Lawrence third (but one good season away from second), Leftwich never did anything here (though I grant he was a fun college player)
The Jags list was Brunell, Garrard, Leftwich, Quinn Gray and Chad Henne. I only flipped Leftwich and Garrard this time because the narrative made more sense.
The Bears list was Luckman, McMahon, Cutler, Harbaugh and Wade.
Liking this because everyone should get A Good Walkthrough Spoiled! One of my best Kindle purchases. And there’s a Top 5 RB by franchise which someone was asking about.
The idea to do the whole league came from that summer's lockout. I hadn't thought of going back and crosschecking, but if you found one walkthrough i guess it's easy enough to find the rest.
Bortles made it on a top 5 QB list! Bortles 2017 is so common; Mike talks about it: the Bad QB looks good when 2nd best scoring D only allows less then 17 points per game.
Mark Sanchez syndrome. Wow how clutch! He's got the "it factor". The shit factor. But Bortles had decent #s in 2017, partly from run game and D making passing much easier. Rarely not having a lead.
2017 Vikings #1 D Case Keenum had pretty good numbers, top 10 2017...one of those wierd outlier performances.
"Paying for the outlier" Bortles has only 7 yards per attempt but a team total 2262 yard rushing (that's #1 in rushing most of i2010s) and 6th place O in scoring with 20 Rush TDs fooled people this was a sustainable thing. "He'll keep developing" mirage. It was very stupid at the time, got worse in 2018 wasting a pretty talented D.
Vikings moving on from keenum to get cousins is one of the most intelligent decisions. Wishful thinking plagues QB decisions. Daniel Jones put up bad film in 2022 NYG sunk themselves anyway. Fans: He's just like Eli! Eli was cruddy too for four years until WK17 2007! SBs here we come!
Lawrence was the best prospect since Luck IMO. He had zero chance of success under Urban as a rookie, was excellent in his second year and was playing very well before getting hurt last year.
I think expectations about QBs have become entirely unrealistic. We expect 15 guys to be Top Five QBs, think everyone who is not in the Top Five is rubbish, and overreact to cold snaps.
I commentator (I think it was Nate Tice, but could be wrong), said Lawrence so far looks like he'll be more like Matt Ryan, instead of Peyton Manning (like everyone was hoping for). Getting a Matt Ryan caliber quarterback is still a pretty damn good result!
What I recall of Brunell's 1994 performance against the Vikings, it was actually pretty miserable. A first half 2-minute drive for a TD, one 3-and-out after another after another before and after that drive, then a late turnover when an equally incredible Packer defensive performance left them in position to win anyway.
Thank you, didn't know you could get that old of boxscores there.
It lists a 15-yard sack of Warren Moon by Reggie White. I'd wager that's the one I remember.
The Vikings ran a play-action fake going left with an almost-naked bootleg right, the "almost" part being lone blocker Cris Carter. You'd think they ought to have foreseen the possibility of Reggie White being the guy Carter would wind up being responsible for, Reggie being the defensive end on that side. Anyhoo, Reggie picked up Carter with one hand and threw him a good 10 feet right into Moon, bullseye, knocking Moon onto the turf with Carter atop him. Reggie then touches him for the sack.
Damnedest defensive play I ever saw.
As to damnedest offensive play, my new favorite is Leftwich being carried down the field by his two teammates! I must not have seen it back then.
I was confused when researching Packers Brunell, because that relief appearance was talked about as something that caught the NFL's attention, yet it seemed rather paltry to me. My guess is that Gruden and the others were talking him up to the others.
I did that in 2012, just as I did the QBs in 2011! The problems are that most teams' greatest RBs will be lumped in the 70s thru 90s, so I won't get the immediacy of, say talking about Mahomes in a few weeks or Josh Allen early in this series. Furthermore, RB research will probably be trickier than QB research; even when RBs were stars, Dr. Z and others were less likely to wax rhapsodic about them. Next year's historical offseason thingy will probably be something different.
How about '3 Greatest+1 Worst Head Coaches (or GMs) in Franchise History'? I'm guessing that could involve one heckuva lotta new legwork for you, tho'.
Oddly enough, I liked Brunell and Garrard. I guess it's because they were good enough to not be totally miserable but not really threatening (Brunell's 1999, and Garrard never really seemed like he'd get Jacksonville over the hump.) It does suck that other than Brunell, Bortles was the closest to a Jaguars Super Bowl appearance.
I can't say much about Gabbert as a Jaguar, but he was so frustrating to watch in his relief appearances for Tennessee. He would throw a couple of solid completions that suckered you in, and then he would throw a backbreaking INT. I'm amazed at how Mularkey was able to get a playoff win when he looked so dire in Jacksonville.
As a Jags fan, Garrard should be second and Lawrence third (but one good season away from second), Leftwich never did anything here (though I grant he was a fun college player)
Ahem, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, that's TITANS/Oilers Top 5.
"Grossman might crack the Bears list. ", is a horrifying statement
The only other Bears quarterback besides Jim McMahon to get to (okay, dragged to) a Super Bowl!
Their #2 all-time passer retired 74 years ago. Grossman is on the list.
He probably is. I am afraid to look ahead.
Give in, Mike. Experience the Rextasy.
The Sex Cannon must be recognized!
I was looking for the 2010 DVOA numbers and, while surfing the Outsiders RIP site in the Wayback Machine, I came across this 2011 article by our author-host where he shares his top-5 QB opinions on a host of teams. It'd be interesting to see the what 13 years of more data and reflection has wrought. https://web.archive.org/web/20111016223511/http://footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2011/walkthrough-full-house
No Jaguars, just Bears, Packers, Steelers, and Jets.
I'm pretty sure Mike also covered the Jaguars, just not in that specific article.
The whole series is in A Good Walkthrough Spoiled, which I think can still be obtained.
https://www.amazon.com/Good-Walkthrough-Spoiled-Football-Outsiders/dp/1499321503
The Jags list was Brunell, Garrard, Leftwich, Quinn Gray and Chad Henne. I only flipped Leftwich and Garrard this time because the narrative made more sense.
The Bears list was Luckman, McMahon, Cutler, Harbaugh and Wade.
Liking this because everyone should get A Good Walkthrough Spoiled! One of my best Kindle purchases. And there’s a Top 5 RB by franchise which someone was asking about.
The idea to do the whole league came from that summer's lockout. I hadn't thought of going back and crosschecking, but if you found one walkthrough i guess it's easy enough to find the rest.
Bortles made it on a top 5 QB list! Bortles 2017 is so common; Mike talks about it: the Bad QB looks good when 2nd best scoring D only allows less then 17 points per game.
Mark Sanchez syndrome. Wow how clutch! He's got the "it factor". The shit factor. But Bortles had decent #s in 2017, partly from run game and D making passing much easier. Rarely not having a lead.
2017 Vikings #1 D Case Keenum had pretty good numbers, top 10 2017...one of those wierd outlier performances.
IIRC, the Jaguars extended Bortles after 2017 (as a reward for being average instead of bad).
The 2017 Vikings were smart to realize Keenum's performance was not sustainable.
"Paying for the outlier" Bortles has only 7 yards per attempt but a team total 2262 yard rushing (that's #1 in rushing most of i2010s) and 6th place O in scoring with 20 Rush TDs fooled people this was a sustainable thing. "He'll keep developing" mirage. It was very stupid at the time, got worse in 2018 wasting a pretty talented D.
Vikings moving on from keenum to get cousins is one of the most intelligent decisions. Wishful thinking plagues QB decisions. Daniel Jones put up bad film in 2022 NYG sunk themselves anyway. Fans: He's just like Eli! Eli was cruddy too for four years until WK17 2007! SBs here we come!
Isn't Lawrence vastly "more talented than Leftwich or Gerrard"?
So has Trevor been a mild disappointment thus far? How do his first 4 years compare to, say, Elway's? Or Luck's?
Yeah, isn’t it fair to say that Lawrence came into the league with a “best prospect since Luck” label?
He’s certainly no bust, and there’s a lot of story yet to be told, but right now “mild disappointment” isn’t unreasonable, is it?
He feels a little Goff-ish to me. Fine, but not a win-because-of guy.
Lawrence was the best prospect since Luck IMO. He had zero chance of success under Urban as a rookie, was excellent in his second year and was playing very well before getting hurt last year.
I think expectations about QBs have become entirely unrealistic. We expect 15 guys to be Top Five QBs, think everyone who is not in the Top Five is rubbish, and overreact to cold snaps.
I commentator (I think it was Nate Tice, but could be wrong), said Lawrence so far looks like he'll be more like Matt Ryan, instead of Peyton Manning (like everyone was hoping for). Getting a Matt Ryan caliber quarterback is still a pretty damn good result!
What I recall of Brunell's 1994 performance against the Vikings, it was actually pretty miserable. A first half 2-minute drive for a TD, one 3-and-out after another after another before and after that drive, then a late turnover when an equally incredible Packer defensive performance left them in position to win anyway.
(yes, I'm too lazy to go look it up)
Your memory was spot on:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199410200min.htm
Thank you, didn't know you could get that old of boxscores there.
It lists a 15-yard sack of Warren Moon by Reggie White. I'd wager that's the one I remember.
The Vikings ran a play-action fake going left with an almost-naked bootleg right, the "almost" part being lone blocker Cris Carter. You'd think they ought to have foreseen the possibility of Reggie White being the guy Carter would wind up being responsible for, Reggie being the defensive end on that side. Anyhoo, Reggie picked up Carter with one hand and threw him a good 10 feet right into Moon, bullseye, knocking Moon onto the turf with Carter atop him. Reggie then touches him for the sack.
Damnedest defensive play I ever saw.
As to damnedest offensive play, my new favorite is Leftwich being carried down the field by his two teammates! I must not have seen it back then.
That description of the sack sounds incredible, so I had to look it up. Hard to do it justice with just words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNfvoGI9DQ0
Thanks yet again, PJ! (you are encouraging my laziness, tho')
Not quite as dramatic as my memory of it, tho'.
I was confused when researching Packers Brunell, because that relief appearance was talked about as something that caught the NFL's attention, yet it seemed rather paltry to me. My guess is that Gruden and the others were talking him up to the others.
Still a pretty damn impressive play! Also an incredible feat of athleticism by Moon to keep his feet (at least temporarily until White got to him).
Mike, when you're done with ranking QBs by teams, what are your thoughts on starting a top 10 greatest RBs by teams articles group?
I did that in 2012, just as I did the QBs in 2011! The problems are that most teams' greatest RBs will be lumped in the 70s thru 90s, so I won't get the immediacy of, say talking about Mahomes in a few weeks or Josh Allen early in this series. Furthermore, RB research will probably be trickier than QB research; even when RBs were stars, Dr. Z and others were less likely to wax rhapsodic about them. Next year's historical offseason thingy will probably be something different.
How about '3 Greatest+1 Worst Head Coaches (or GMs) in Franchise History'? I'm guessing that could involve one heckuva lotta new legwork for you, tho'.
Oddly enough, I liked Brunell and Garrard. I guess it's because they were good enough to not be totally miserable but not really threatening (Brunell's 1999, and Garrard never really seemed like he'd get Jacksonville over the hump.) It does suck that other than Brunell, Bortles was the closest to a Jaguars Super Bowl appearance.
I can't say much about Gabbert as a Jaguar, but he was so frustrating to watch in his relief appearances for Tennessee. He would throw a couple of solid completions that suckered you in, and then he would throw a backbreaking INT. I'm amazed at how Mularkey was able to get a playoff win when he looked so dire in Jacksonville.