If anyone is harboring any doubts about the way Black quarterbacks were treated in the not-so-old NFL, please consider Warren Moon.
6’3”, 220 lbs. Smart. Successful college career. Mostly a pocket guy, but with some mobility. Threw the prettiest ball in the game. He was basically Terry Bradshaw. If it wasn’t for that pesky pigment thing, he would be the most obvious #1 overall pick you could imagine.
But he went undrafted. Undrafted.
How powerful is prejudice that people whose jobs literally depend upon them winning football games can look at a quarterback like Moon and see only the color of his skin?
Warren Moon went undrafted because he'd already signed with the CFL.
Moon considered himself "perhaps a slightly above-average athlete". (see Wiki) Bradshaw was the Josh Allen of his day, just with a reasonable idea of where his passes were going. Cam Newton would be another good comp.
Moon's sophomore and junior years he completed just over 40% of his passes with more interceptions than TDs for a .500 team. His senior year was good, but hardly historic.
Hyperbolic posts do a (very) small bit to sustain prejudice rather than contest it.
Warren Moon wasn't not drafted because he went to the CFL, he went to the CFL because he wasn't drafted. Yes, Moon signed with Edmonton prior to the draft but it's because numerous NFL types had told him he wouldn't be drafted until later rounds (when draft was 12 rounds) and would be drafted to see if he could play WR or any other non-QB position.
Also, Moon's 20-19 TD-INT ratio was barely different than Bradshaw's 39-42 ratio in college. Bradshaw had a 52.8 comp pct to Moon's 49.8. IN short, you bringing up Moon's stats while ignoring Bradshaw's is an attempt to paint Moon as worse than he was.
Moon wasn't drafted because the NFL was then (and still is in many ways) run by racist old white men. Any other conclusion ignores all available evidence.
Moon spent 6 full season in the CFL before coming to the NFL. No white QB with Moon's Canadian resume would have lasted more than a year in the CFL. Moon finished his career in the top 10 of many NFL counting statistics. Imagine how big his numbers would have been if he hadn't started his NFL career at age 27.
To be fair, in the 4 years that Moon was a starter in the CFL, a white QB, Dieter Brock, was named the most outstanding player twice to Moon's once. (Another black QB, Conredge Holloway, won the other year. I can't remember why, now. Holloway had a long and decent career in the CFL but never had Moon's or Brock's level of talent. Might have been a "career achievement Oscar" type recognition for Holloway).
Like Moon, Brock went to the CFL right out of college and, like Moon, spent 2 years platooning with an established QB before becoming the clear starter in his 3rd year. As a starter, he led the CFL in passing yardage 4 out of 8 years (for Moon, it was 2 out of 4 years).
Not sure if you guys remember Brock? After 10 years in Canada, he joined the Rams in 1985 and had a pretty good year until he got slaughtered by Da Bears in the NFC Championship. The next year, he got injured in a preseason game and never played professional football again.
Brock was a traditional pocket passer with a big arm, the sort of guy the NFL loved. I don't know the details of why Brock came to Canada or why he stayed so long. No doubt at some time he signed a longer-term contract which kept him in the CFL for a while. It's hard to imagine now, but the early 80s were the tail end of the period when CFL teams could pay as well as the NFL. So maybe Brock got a better offer from Winnipeg than from the NFL and stayed until that was no longer true.
In any event, for Moon he came to the CFL because he wanted to be a QB. After signing a contract, he couldn't go back to the NFL until that contract expired. I don't recall if he went back to the NFL after the end of his first contract or second.
That's fair and interesting. And I get your point, saying "hey, he's just as accomplished as Moon but didn't get a shot at the NFL."
Brock was listed at 6 feet tall but anyone who saw him knew better. He also weighed under 200 pounds. Nobody with those stats was getting drafted in the 80's. Also, he did little at Auburn to distinguish himself and ended up transferring to Jackson State.
Also, I think Brock had one of the least impressive "playoff win" stat lines ever:
6 of 22, for 50 yards with no TDs and and an INT - this is a 20-0 division round victory over the Cowboys. That moved the Rams to the championship game against the '85 Bears where he compiled:
10 of 31 for 66 yards, 0 TDs, and INT and 3 sacks. Meaning in his two playoff games he threw 53 passes for a total of 116 yards and 2 INTs. Good for 2.2 YPA and a 20 passer rating.
I would argue anyone who saw him play in the NFL would agree he wasn't in same arena as Warren Moon.
I didn't really have a point, just sharing context.
Interesting point about Dieter Brock's height. I didn't remember that. The CFL had a history of shorter QBs ending up here (Ron Lancaster and Tom Clements come to mind). That certainly could explain why he went the CFL route.
I think it's a little unfair to Brock to judge him exclusively on two playoff games, especially given the quality of the defenses he faced in those games. His regular season numbers in '85 were better, and regrettably he didn't get to put up any more NFL numbers. In the CFL, playing against common opponents as Moon, their stats were almost indistinguishable (Brock's time in the CFL fully overlapped Moon's). Brock was a few years further into his career than Moon, which was a benefit to him, but Moon had better talent around him.
That said, I'd take peak Moon over peak Brock, too, but the difference between them was pretty small, moreso than may have been evident from Brock's single NFL season.
Oh, to be clear, I wasn't judging Brock on those two playoff games. He was decent throughout the 85 regular season. Just thought it amazing he put up such putrid numbers in a playoff WIN. That made me check his next game and saw that.
I only remember him because I'm a Cowboys fan and the fact the Cowboys lost playoff games to Rams teams quarterbacked by Brock Dieter ('85) and Vince Ferragamo ('83) is one of those things that gets under your skin and stays there forever.
Your first sentence is a bit cart before horse. Warren Moon signed with the CFL <because> no NFL teams had shown interest (and at least one had asked him to work out at wide receiver). Even then, he only got a chance because the Oilers hired his coach from Edmonton, and Hugh Campbell insisted they were a package deal. Even then, they drafted Jim Everett with the number three pick in 1986 shortly after firing Campbell, but couldn't come to terms and had to trade him to the Rams. Even in 1993, one bad month was enough for a fan movement to coalesce around Cody fxxking Carlson.
Warren Moon had a hall of fame career despite a ton of obstacles in his way, most of which didn't need to be there, some of which were deliberately put there. I don't think it's hyperbole to say so.
Sure, Rich, there’s complexity here that I chose to ignore to make a point.
But Moon and Bradshaw are very similar, trait-wise, and are almost identical in size. Their rushing stats in the NFL were also similar.
Moon didn’t go to the CFL in a vacuum. There was a reason. And in a twelve round draft, fourteen quarterbacks were picked. But no one took a flier on him.
It would be ridiculous to argue that NFL teams were intentionally denying opportunity. Why would they do that? Winning really is what matters. It’s more about the biases of the time. Moon should have been viewed as a top prospect. He wasn’t.
On behalf of CFL fans everywhere, I'd like to thank the NFL establishment for letting us watch Moon play for Edmonton in his prime. He had to share playing time with established QB Tom Wilkinson for a couple of years, but by his third season he took over as the starting QB. In his 6 years north of the border he helped Edmonton win 4 Grey Cups, 1 as a backup, 3 as a starter, and won the Most Outstanding Player award once.
The only thing about Kaep that I want to mention is:
Lamar Jackson is like the refined, ultra-concentrated Kaep (yes he's a better passer too whatever) and it was really amusing when the league celebrated his 2nd best QB rushing day of all time without ever mentioning who #1 was...
despite #1 having done it with the same offensive coordinater and a head coach who is Jackson's head coach's brother.
Counterpoint: I actually enjoy that kind of personalization in sportswriting. It helps us as readers to feel a little bit more of a connection to the people we are reading, though I agree it's a fine line. But as long as you don't turn into Bill Simmons I appreciate the little glimpses behind the scenes.
Simmons is the poster child for what ails many in the sport commentary business.
They achieve success by writing / covering their teams passionately. They then begin to think THEY are more interesting than the sports they cover and stop being interesting.
In calendar year 1988 Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon were elected to the Pro Bowl and Doug Williams was Superbowl MVP. I would have confidently said then "no prospect of ... caliber will ever again be so casually, erroneously “othered.”"
Jeff Blake at #10 is Stoney Case erasure and I won't stand for it!
He was...almost good in the preseason for a few years and so of course all of Baltimore wanted to see what he could do in the regular season. The answer would probably have been sub-Bolleresque, but we didn't really get the chance.
If it wasn't a ranking exercise, I would not comment. I don't bleed purple, being old enough to have watched the last seven years of Johnny U in Baltimore and Marchibroda coaching Bert Jones. But Dilfer ranks higher than Testaverde and Boller if their Ravens careers are the focus of this article. And Tyler Huntley belongs on this list; his work as a Raven far exceeds Blake and Wright.
I was going to place Dilfer 5th, but his 47.9% completion rate in the playoffs of the Super Bowl year broke me. And Boller, while bad, simply wasn't THAT bad.
I also considered Huntley, but not over Wright, who managed a 5-2 stretch at one point.
Eli is the greatest Pretty Good QB or the worst Excellent one. Polian really did have a long career of excellence: the Bills era as Enrique mentions, turning the expansion Panthers into a playoff team immediately, the long tenure in Indy. He knew what he was doing, and actually gave me a lovely interview once. But he's a tiresome fellow who stopped processing new information circa 2002.
Maybe Mike does not even know the answer to this but I've always wondered if Joe Flacco ever read any of the football musings of his former calculus teacher turned NFL writer.
I don't get the "most willing mouthpieces" link?? It affirms a place for the running QB in current NFL offenses, lauding Russell Wilson as the most prominent example of one who is making it work and winning games and titles as a result.
I see the two things you hate (quoting Mike Shanahan without noting what a horrible coach/dreck of a human being he is; making a totally passing reference to what 'additional' things kept Kaepernick out of the game). But his conclusion is that quarterback running DOES still work in the NFL.
If anyone is harboring any doubts about the way Black quarterbacks were treated in the not-so-old NFL, please consider Warren Moon.
6’3”, 220 lbs. Smart. Successful college career. Mostly a pocket guy, but with some mobility. Threw the prettiest ball in the game. He was basically Terry Bradshaw. If it wasn’t for that pesky pigment thing, he would be the most obvious #1 overall pick you could imagine.
But he went undrafted. Undrafted.
How powerful is prejudice that people whose jobs literally depend upon them winning football games can look at a quarterback like Moon and see only the color of his skin?
Warren Moon went undrafted because he'd already signed with the CFL.
Moon considered himself "perhaps a slightly above-average athlete". (see Wiki) Bradshaw was the Josh Allen of his day, just with a reasonable idea of where his passes were going. Cam Newton would be another good comp.
Moon's sophomore and junior years he completed just over 40% of his passes with more interceptions than TDs for a .500 team. His senior year was good, but hardly historic.
Hyperbolic posts do a (very) small bit to sustain prejudice rather than contest it.
Absolutely absurd white-washing of history.
Warren Moon wasn't not drafted because he went to the CFL, he went to the CFL because he wasn't drafted. Yes, Moon signed with Edmonton prior to the draft but it's because numerous NFL types had told him he wouldn't be drafted until later rounds (when draft was 12 rounds) and would be drafted to see if he could play WR or any other non-QB position.
Also, Moon's 20-19 TD-INT ratio was barely different than Bradshaw's 39-42 ratio in college. Bradshaw had a 52.8 comp pct to Moon's 49.8. IN short, you bringing up Moon's stats while ignoring Bradshaw's is an attempt to paint Moon as worse than he was.
Moon wasn't drafted because the NFL was then (and still is in many ways) run by racist old white men. Any other conclusion ignores all available evidence.
Moon spent 6 full season in the CFL before coming to the NFL. No white QB with Moon's Canadian resume would have lasted more than a year in the CFL. Moon finished his career in the top 10 of many NFL counting statistics. Imagine how big his numbers would have been if he hadn't started his NFL career at age 27.
To be fair, in the 4 years that Moon was a starter in the CFL, a white QB, Dieter Brock, was named the most outstanding player twice to Moon's once. (Another black QB, Conredge Holloway, won the other year. I can't remember why, now. Holloway had a long and decent career in the CFL but never had Moon's or Brock's level of talent. Might have been a "career achievement Oscar" type recognition for Holloway).
Like Moon, Brock went to the CFL right out of college and, like Moon, spent 2 years platooning with an established QB before becoming the clear starter in his 3rd year. As a starter, he led the CFL in passing yardage 4 out of 8 years (for Moon, it was 2 out of 4 years).
Not sure if you guys remember Brock? After 10 years in Canada, he joined the Rams in 1985 and had a pretty good year until he got slaughtered by Da Bears in the NFC Championship. The next year, he got injured in a preseason game and never played professional football again.
Brock was a traditional pocket passer with a big arm, the sort of guy the NFL loved. I don't know the details of why Brock came to Canada or why he stayed so long. No doubt at some time he signed a longer-term contract which kept him in the CFL for a while. It's hard to imagine now, but the early 80s were the tail end of the period when CFL teams could pay as well as the NFL. So maybe Brock got a better offer from Winnipeg than from the NFL and stayed until that was no longer true.
In any event, for Moon he came to the CFL because he wanted to be a QB. After signing a contract, he couldn't go back to the NFL until that contract expired. I don't recall if he went back to the NFL after the end of his first contract or second.
That's fair and interesting. And I get your point, saying "hey, he's just as accomplished as Moon but didn't get a shot at the NFL."
Brock was listed at 6 feet tall but anyone who saw him knew better. He also weighed under 200 pounds. Nobody with those stats was getting drafted in the 80's. Also, he did little at Auburn to distinguish himself and ended up transferring to Jackson State.
Also, I think Brock had one of the least impressive "playoff win" stat lines ever:
6 of 22, for 50 yards with no TDs and and an INT - this is a 20-0 division round victory over the Cowboys. That moved the Rams to the championship game against the '85 Bears where he compiled:
10 of 31 for 66 yards, 0 TDs, and INT and 3 sacks. Meaning in his two playoff games he threw 53 passes for a total of 116 yards and 2 INTs. Good for 2.2 YPA and a 20 passer rating.
I would argue anyone who saw him play in the NFL would agree he wasn't in same arena as Warren Moon.
I didn't really have a point, just sharing context.
Interesting point about Dieter Brock's height. I didn't remember that. The CFL had a history of shorter QBs ending up here (Ron Lancaster and Tom Clements come to mind). That certainly could explain why he went the CFL route.
I think it's a little unfair to Brock to judge him exclusively on two playoff games, especially given the quality of the defenses he faced in those games. His regular season numbers in '85 were better, and regrettably he didn't get to put up any more NFL numbers. In the CFL, playing against common opponents as Moon, their stats were almost indistinguishable (Brock's time in the CFL fully overlapped Moon's). Brock was a few years further into his career than Moon, which was a benefit to him, but Moon had better talent around him.
That said, I'd take peak Moon over peak Brock, too, but the difference between them was pretty small, moreso than may have been evident from Brock's single NFL season.
Oh, to be clear, I wasn't judging Brock on those two playoff games. He was decent throughout the 85 regular season. Just thought it amazing he put up such putrid numbers in a playoff WIN. That made me check his next game and saw that.
I only remember him because I'm a Cowboys fan and the fact the Cowboys lost playoff games to Rams teams quarterbacked by Brock Dieter ('85) and Vince Ferragamo ('83) is one of those things that gets under your skin and stays there forever.
Your first sentence is a bit cart before horse. Warren Moon signed with the CFL <because> no NFL teams had shown interest (and at least one had asked him to work out at wide receiver). Even then, he only got a chance because the Oilers hired his coach from Edmonton, and Hugh Campbell insisted they were a package deal. Even then, they drafted Jim Everett with the number three pick in 1986 shortly after firing Campbell, but couldn't come to terms and had to trade him to the Rams. Even in 1993, one bad month was enough for a fan movement to coalesce around Cody fxxking Carlson.
Warren Moon had a hall of fame career despite a ton of obstacles in his way, most of which didn't need to be there, some of which were deliberately put there. I don't think it's hyperbole to say so.
Sure, Rich, there’s complexity here that I chose to ignore to make a point.
But Moon and Bradshaw are very similar, trait-wise, and are almost identical in size. Their rushing stats in the NFL were also similar.
Moon didn’t go to the CFL in a vacuum. There was a reason. And in a twelve round draft, fourteen quarterbacks were picked. But no one took a flier on him.
It would be ridiculous to argue that NFL teams were intentionally denying opportunity. Why would they do that? Winning really is what matters. It’s more about the biases of the time. Moon should have been viewed as a top prospect. He wasn’t.
On behalf of CFL fans everywhere, I'd like to thank the NFL establishment for letting us watch Moon play for Edmonton in his prime. He had to share playing time with established QB Tom Wilkinson for a couple of years, but by his third season he took over as the starting QB. In his 6 years north of the border he helped Edmonton win 4 Grey Cups, 1 as a backup, 3 as a starter, and won the Most Outstanding Player award once.
The only thing about Kaep that I want to mention is:
Lamar Jackson is like the refined, ultra-concentrated Kaep (yes he's a better passer too whatever) and it was really amusing when the league celebrated his 2nd best QB rushing day of all time without ever mentioning who #1 was...
despite #1 having done it with the same offensive coordinater and a head coach who is Jackson's head coach's brother.
Jackson also exchanged Twitter pleasantries with the 45th president after winning the MVP award. The late 2010s were weird.
Remember Mike Pence showing up to a Colts game so he could performatively leave before the game as some kinda statement?
Counterpoint: I actually enjoy that kind of personalization in sportswriting. It helps us as readers to feel a little bit more of a connection to the people we are reading, though I agree it's a fine line. But as long as you don't turn into Bill Simmons I appreciate the little glimpses behind the scenes.
Simmons is the poster child for what ails many in the sport commentary business.
They achieve success by writing / covering their teams passionately. They then begin to think THEY are more interesting than the sports they cover and stop being interesting.
In calendar year 1988 Randall Cunningham and Warren Moon were elected to the Pro Bowl and Doug Williams was Superbowl MVP. I would have confidently said then "no prospect of ... caliber will ever again be so casually, erroneously “othered.”"
I hope you're right Mike.
Jeff Blake at #10 is Stoney Case erasure and I won't stand for it!
He was...almost good in the preseason for a few years and so of course all of Baltimore wanted to see what he could do in the regular season. The answer would probably have been sub-Bolleresque, but we didn't really get the chance.
I saw Stoney Case play for the 2000 Lions (and sink their playoff hopes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRg5n_8Gehw
So you're wrong, he would have been several levels below sub-Bolleresque.
Not that i mind, especially because it was funny, but why did we go top ten for a top five article? XD
1-5 get serious contextual discussions, 6-10 get quips.
If it wasn't a ranking exercise, I would not comment. I don't bleed purple, being old enough to have watched the last seven years of Johnny U in Baltimore and Marchibroda coaching Bert Jones. But Dilfer ranks higher than Testaverde and Boller if their Ravens careers are the focus of this article. And Tyler Huntley belongs on this list; his work as a Raven far exceeds Blake and Wright.
I was going to place Dilfer 5th, but his 47.9% completion rate in the playoffs of the Super Bowl year broke me. And Boller, while bad, simply wasn't THAT bad.
I also considered Huntley, but not over Wright, who managed a 5-2 stretch at one point.
That’s Pro Bowl quarterback Tyler Huntley to you.
If Testeverde is the best terrible QB, where does that leave Eli Manning?
Why did people take Bill Polian seriously? Was it because he drafted Peyton? Because that isn't a particularly impressive accomplishment.
He was also GM of the Bills on the 4-Super Bowl appearances streak.
Eli is the greatest Pretty Good QB or the worst Excellent one. Polian really did have a long career of excellence: the Bills era as Enrique mentions, turning the expansion Panthers into a playoff team immediately, the long tenure in Indy. He knew what he was doing, and actually gave me a lovely interview once. But he's a tiresome fellow who stopped processing new information circa 2002.
I wonder how much it would affect our thinking about Eli if he wasn't descended from and otherwise related to NFL QB royalty. And in which direction.
Imma save Eli speculation until absolutely necessary!
Hugely enjoyed the bonus Flacco anecdote! And one of many great reasons not to teach bell to bell :)
Maybe Mike does not even know the answer to this but I've always wondered if Joe Flacco ever read any of the football musings of his former calculus teacher turned NFL writer.
I don't get the "most willing mouthpieces" link?? It affirms a place for the running QB in current NFL offenses, lauding Russell Wilson as the most prominent example of one who is making it work and winning games and titles as a result.
I see the two things you hate (quoting Mike Shanahan without noting what a horrible coach/dreck of a human being he is; making a totally passing reference to what 'additional' things kept Kaepernick out of the game). But his conclusion is that quarterback running DOES still work in the NFL.